Transcript: Interview With Mark Cowan, CPA

In our latest podcast episode, Maureen talks with Mark Cowan, CPA, professor at Boise State University, about how we can lift the stigma on mental health and shifting our culture to be more supportive. Listen to the full podcast here.

Maureen:
Welcome to the VSCPA Leading Forward Podcast, where we focus on innovation, leadership and the CPA profession. I'm Maureen Dingus, and I invite thought leaders for short, casual conversations on topics and trends important to the success of the CPA profession. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Leading Forward today. We are with Mark Cowen. He's a professor of accountancy at Boise State University, and he is helping us with our mental health empowerment series. He is the second of a series of podcasts that we're doing that tackles different aspects of mental health wellness and the CPA profession. So thank you Mark for joining us.

Mark:
Well, thank you for having me, Maureen. I think it's important that we talk more about these issues.

Maureen:
Yeah, great. Well, you know the reason that we even invited Mark and we know about him is he was the he told a very personal story in the journal of accountancy last February about his experiences with depression. And we're going to get into that in a little bit, but that we, we kind of, I just personally discovered that article, I may have seen it when it came out, but it really came to light to me again when we started doing some research for this program. So you know, it's, it's interesting to think that that was a year ago and now everyone's mental health wellness and, and, and the way that they're dealing with stress is just been amplified in the last 10 months or so. So very timely. You were, you were cutting edge, I guess, at least for the CPA profession. So anyway, before we jump into some of the specifics as I mentioned, your professor of accountancy, tell us about your leadership journey and how you came to your role at Boise state.

Mark:
So I began in the, I guess you would say the traditional CPA career path. And I worked for one of the big four firms Pricewaterhouse back in the day now it's PWC, of course in Hartford, Connecticut where I grew up and I worked there for about six and a half years working on a variety of different clients from Intacs from individuals up to multinationals. And I was there about six and a half years, and then decided to go into private industry and actually had a really interesting job as the tax director at a publicly traded ski resort holding company. And we had resorts in new England and then also out West in California and Nevada, Utah, Colorado dynamic company, growing company, very interesting, lots of tax issues, learned a lot about business and how a business runs and how a business is financed and the day-to-day stuff that you don't really see in a CPA firm.

So I was very lucky to have that experience. So collectively 10 years between those two posts. And then I decided that I really, really liked tax salon. I want to learn more about it. So I decided to go to law school. And while I was doing that, I was teaching part-time. I went to the university of Connecticut and I was teaching part-time at the university of Hartford and in their graduate tax program, I found, I really liked that and I liked the writing. And so I decided to pursue a position as a professor. And it all depends on who's hiring and one particular year I always wanted to live out West and Boise state had a position. I came here 16 years ago and I've been teaching here ever since. I teach undergraduate tax. I teach in our graduate tax program. I teach multi-state taxation, corporate tax partnership tax and nonprofit tax. And then I'm also the head of our graduate tax program here at Boise state. So that's kind of where I came to where I am today.

Maureen:
And now you get to learn how to teach during a pandemic.

Mark:
Exactly. Now I get to learn to teach out of pandemic. It's interesting because literally I actually did an article in tax notes specifically about teaching during a pandemic. And what was interesting was I said in there that we had to switch from in-person to virtual overnight. And I wasn't exaggerating because it was like 6:00 PM on a Friday when they said starting Monday and for the rest of the semester, no more meeting on campus. So it was quite a switch for all of us, but we handled it. So,

Maureen:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're all muddling through. Right. And then hopefully getting better learning some good lessons and we'll figure out how what will stay and what will go at some point, right. So Mark you, as I mentioned earlier, you were featured in the journal of accountancy back in February. How did that even come about? So I, I kind of felt,

Mark:
I didn't really want to view that article. I mean, I had gone through the personal struggles that I explain in the article but I didn't really want to do it. I was, I felt though sort of driven or compelled to do it because you know, from, from where I work, I kind of crossed three professions. The teaching higher education profession, the legal profession and the CPA profession. And so I keep up with those three professions and in the higher ed area, this sort of thing about mental health is talked about all the time struggles that students are having struggles that professors are having. Unfortunately high profile suicides that were occurring in, in academia, same thing in the legal profession, the ABA journal which is their main kind of like their journal of accountancy, but not plate. That journal would often feature articles about mental health.

And again, unfortunately about high-profile suicides and what, what the profession might do to address that. And what was interesting was the silence. I didn't really see anything anywhere in the accounting publications that a typical CPA would be keeping up with. And I found that interesting that there was, I mean, I found a blog post here and there, but not really anything. And I decided that, like I said, I felt compelled to, to it. Because I figure if I don't speak about it, if I don't kind of broach the subject, you know, who is going to, because who would take it, it's less of a risk for me than it would be for other people to reveal this sort of thing, because I'm a tenured full professor. I don't have clients that I'm worried about thinking about me in a different way. I don't have a particular employer.

That's going to be concerned about that. So I felt if I can't speak to this and hopefully open the conversation, I'm not sure who's ever going to I'm sure there'll be some brave person who would, but I just felt like I said, compelled. And actually a colleague of mine said, well, I'm not surprised you felt compelled because when you're an educator, you feel like you have to educate and communicate the best you can. Right. So that's sort of the, kind of the origin story of, of the article. And I'm very pleased that, you know, I sent it into the journal of accountancy figured that's where it would get the most attention was people would see it. And I got to give a lot of credit to the, the journal of accountancy because they've never published anything like this before, and yet they were willing to, they were willing to do so and take that chance.

Maureen:
Yeah. Yeah. So since you've broached the subject, since you kind of put this out there pretty pretty widely do you feel anything has changed since then had, does it started to get some traction?

Mark:
I I kind of get the impression that it did resonate quite a bit between me and the editor at the journal of accountancy, we received well over a hundred emails. I, I just got a phone call, some phone calls, and I just got a phone call last week from CPAs all over the country who were thanking us for doing this and bringing it out there and privately sharing their stories with us. And it's something that is kind of hidden. And I'm glad to see that at least I hope the article is helping people who are struggling themselves to know they're not alone. And, and to feel a little better about what they're going through while trying to navigate the profession as well. I don't know that it's it's kind of hard to tell whether it's changed anything. I have, you know, such as your, I mean, we're talking about it today, the Virginia society has the whole series. You mentioned. The, I had an sec reporting group contacted me to talk to them. I think it's being talked about more. I'm not sure where that's driven by my article or it's driven by just, we're all stressed now with COVID. So,

Maureen:
Yeah. Well, I think that I can see that. It's definitely both. I, as I mentioned, when I started doing research for our programs, your your article popped right to the top of my Google search. I didn't have to go very far to find it. So I think that maybe when people are starting to think about this and wrap their heads around it, they're, they're able to see what was written. So I think that I can imagine that it's, it's on people's minds and, and your, your story is is available. And I can't imagine how it wouldn't wouldn't resonate. But what you're making me think, just with the with education, the legal profession and the counseling profession, it sounds like there's still a stigma in the accounting profession about talking about this. Why, why do you think that is?

Mark:
I think it's I think there's some there's various factors. One would be that, you know, you know, you know, who Ken's to get attracted to the accounting profession you know, people like me that tend that usually a very stoic that are more, you know, inward more introverted and not don't want to talk about our feelings, et cetera. So there's that, there's that natural who had draws second, I think it is that as accountants, I mean, think about how we're trained to CPAs. We are trained, you know, kind of sink or swim. That's just the way, that's the way we learn in the quickest. And you started a CPA firm and they give you an audit or a tax return to do, and you do it the best you can. And then of course your seniors or your manager's going to give you a lot of review notes, and that makes you feel discouraged.

But, you know, time that learning curve is pretty steep, but we climb it pretty fast and we learn to do things on our own and we learn, and we're kind of, you know kind of the culture is, Oh, CPAs, we're smart. We can figure this out. We can figure out how to reconcile intercompany balances. We can figure out a tough tax issue. We can tackle a new auditing standard. We just need to put in the time and the effort. So that's the way we think. And yet when it comes to mental health where you depression, anxiety, we think we can solve that too on our own without having to talk about it in an environment where people don't talk about it. So it, it's kind of reinforcing that, Oh, I can solve this myself. And I don't think, and that is not true. You cannot solve it yourself. I think that's the first step is to realize that this isn't something like a project at work that you need to tackle and just, just work harder at it and it'll get better. You do need to seek, get, you have to identify the problem, admit that there is a problem and then seek professional professional help for that. You can't do it on your own.

Maureen:
Right. Do you think that you know, we talk about retention in the profession. Do you think this may be survival of the fittest attitude or in the anxiety mental health, or are those things maybe not keeping people in the profession? I'm just connecting those two. I don't know. I'm not suggesting it's true, but

Mark:
It is hard to say what I, you know, I, I think the natural next point is that, you know, after sharing my story is like, okay, well, what can we do about it? And I think what we primarily can do about it is just change, change our culture about how we approach it. I don't think it's probably realistic to change the entire culture of the CPA profession, because there are various reasons why public accounting is the way that it is. I mean, we have clients, there are deadlines. You have to, it it's, it's a naturally, it's a hard job and it's challenging. And I don't think you can just change that. So whenever I speak to people, I never say, Oh, we got to convert the profession into all CPA firms need to have a Zen meditation room or something. Nothing like that.

I think we can't really, there's not much we can do to change. The way that we do the job we are, we chose to do. What I do think would be helpful though, is just more more coming from the top of the CPA firms. Hey, we're, we're entering a stressful time. We're entering a busy season, let's have a meeting. And I, some of you may find that you are having more than the usual amount of difficulties. Here's the firm resources. We have be it, an employee assistance program or whatever, feel free to let us know if you're having trouble. Look for colleagues who may be in are exhibiting different behaviors and they did before reach out, have a conversation, encourage them to get, get some help professionally. I think just looking out for each other and the more we talk about it, the more we put it in the culture that, Hey, let's normalize this, this is a stressful profession. And for some people that are predisposed to depression and anxiety, it's going to manifest itself. So let's look out for each other and it's okay to talk about it. And it's okay to go ahead and, and, and get some help. And I do think that change in culture would be very helpful without revamping the way we do business and making it a kinder, gentler profession in me.

Maureen:
Right, right, right.

Mark:
I will say this too is, I do think that there is, you originally started talking about stigma. I think there's still the stigma there, but I believe that it is going to be lifting in the next few years. And primarily that is because of the new members of the profession who will be joining. The students that I see in the college classroom now, especially during this time of COVID, they are aware of mental health issues. They have student meetings where mental health professionals talk to them. They have resources available. The professors are keenly aware of these issues and look out for the students. The students now are used to living in an environment where this sort of, these issues are talked about and where it's okay to get help. And I think when they go into the workforce, that's what they're going to be expecting. I don't think they have any illusions about how tough it is going to be. Maybe they do. It's always tough when you start out. But I think they are going to be expecting that well, in college, people looked out for each other, this from you, you say, we're a family, right. They always say, Oh, we're a family. And we get along, we have fun together. You know, they're going to be expecting just culture, more openness about this sort of thing. So I think that will force it to change.

Maureen:
Right? You say that you need to look out for each other. So that, that doesn't even sound like to me, that it's supervisor to employee, but it's, it's more your peers, you know, all up and down. Is that, what is that what you're saying?

Mark:
Yes. I think it is. I don't think it's necessarily the supervisor. I think the supervisors need to set the tone of, Hey, it's to look out for each other and let's talk about this. Let's admit we're in a stressful situation. And I think it's peer to peer the ones you're working with day to day that will notice if you are, you know, you're a little quieter than usual or you're a little more nervous than usual, but you're not getting the work done by deadlines when you were always very reliable. The problem with that is, of course it's harder to do right now when many of us are working virtually, we don't see our colleagues physically as much.

Maureen:
Yeah. I, and I, I think that you had mentioned this in your article and pardon me if I'm getting it wrong, but thinking of, not even people in your firm, but maybe your colleagues and other firms. So you have sole proprietors who, you know, these one man shops. So they don't have a buddy in the next office looking out for them, but you have these individuals who are really very, very solo, but they may have you know, a colleague that they work with on different clients. So, you know, even across companies, it sounds like you would encourage them.

Mark:
I, you know, I actually haven't thought of that. I haven't thought of that. I haven't pictured, but wow. You really, you, that is an important issue when you have sole proprietors, they are on their own, and they're not working traditionally with other people, but maybe occasionally with another practitioner. I think that's where the CPA societies come in. Right. And the fact that you're even having the series, I think is important that even though even the sole practitioners will become more aware of, of looking out for one another. Right,

Maureen:
Right. So you were telling me before we hopped on that you are working on your next article for the journal, I guess the journal of accountancy or for another publication that really is focused on what can we do? So now, you know, you've told your personal story, you've, you're trying to help diminish the stigma and now people hopefully can start taking action. So, you know, you mentioned promoting the EAPs what else confirms do or companies.

Mark:
Yeah. And I think I pretty much already kind of gave that away. So yeah. Is it's basically is not chain, not re not wholesale changes of the way the CPA firm does business, or private industry does business. Like I said, we have to, we're there to support clients and our employers and things have to get done by when they have to get done, but just, just a small change, but it could be profound is just talking about it, more talking about it at, for meetings. Looking out for one another, setting the tone from the top, and the more we talk about it, the more the stigma will lift. Yeah, so I, I think it's just, it's just a shift in culture, but it can be very, very profound. If we do that and I think it's important also to kind of be aware of transitions.

So I think people are particularly susceptible to mental health issues when going through a transition. So obviously people starting the job at the CPA firm, but then someone getting promoted and now all of a sudden that well, people reporting to them, a brand new partner who's now got to go out and get business. Somebody who's even somebody who's taking the CPA exam and is having kind of struggling with that, you know, look for periods of transition. I think that, that's another thing that all of us working in the profession can do to kind of address the issue and help each other.

Maureen:
Yeah. That's great advice. Do you think that of course a lot of those things can be moments of celebration, like, well now I'm a partner, but with that comes a whole new level of responsibility and personal stress that maybe doesn't, it's not a good look.

Mark:
The, the other thing, and I think this is why, you know, I care obviously very much as, as you do, and as, as, as the listeners do about the profession. And I think that just making these subtle changes is probably in the best interest of the profession. I think it's the right thing to do, but even if the moral case doesn't work with you, I think there's even a business case for doing it. And I think we were talking before we went on about or earlier about retention and my understanding and working with mental health professionals is that you've got two things have to happen for you to have trouble with say depression or anxiety. And one is you have to be predisposed to it. And that could be based on past childhood issues. It could be based on losses. It could be based on grain chemistry, all kinds of things.

That stuff is very hard to sort out, but what triggers it is you have to have not only the predisposition, but also a stimulus. And it's the stress of the CPA firm that will be the stimulus oftentimes, or the stress of working during a pandemic. The, the stimulus will reveal these underlying conditions that you might not know you've had if you haven't had to face these stimuli before. And so, because we do work in a deadline oriented, stressful profession there's a lot more stimuli. And so it will reveal a lot more people with the predisposition. Now, the reason where I get back to retention on this is somebody who doesn't go get help. Doesn't want to identify what they have is depression or anxiety or related disorder. They might think, Oh, you know, what's causing my problems. It's the job. Oh, this job is just too stressful.

I'm sick of, see I'm working at a CPA firm, this is too bad, so I'll quit and I'll get another job. That's easy you know, better hours or less stress. But if they just get rid of the stimulus, which is obvious that right in front of them, but they don't address the underlying predisposition, they're going to be in the same boat. Once another stimulus comes along, maybe the stimulus wasn't the problem. If they deal with the underlying issues by getting professional help, maybe they're the best thing for them would have been to stay in the profession and they could have flourished in the profession. So I think we might be needlessly losing people who mistake the stimulus that's in front of them and want to deal with that and not deal with the bigger, the bigger issues that take more work.

Maureen:
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that that's kind of what was on my mind as far as people leaving maybe needlessly, you know, maybe at the end of the day, it's just not their thing. But I, I think what you're pointing out is that that stimulus may come along soon after in just another form. So trying to get to that underlying problem would be better for the person, for the profession for everyone.

Mark:
And it's very individualized. I mean, it, the predispositions are very complicated and it could be that, yeah, you shouldn't be in the profession. Maybe you need to be doing something else. But I think in a lot of cases with a little bit of work, they could stay in the profession.

Maureen:
Right. Right. So how are your students doing?

Mark:
Our students are under a lot of stress right now. In fact right before I came on this at this meeting, there was I, I came across another article that said that college and university presidents, their number one worry is the mental health of their students. Second was the mental health of their faculty and staff. But yeah, our counseling centers kind of overwhelms. The students are understandably dealing with a whole new world of when they're in person, all these procedures, masks and social distancing when they're online, all the technical issues, the isolation of being online there's lots of different things that they're they're with. They might have family members that have COVID or have other issues. But I'm, I'm still impressed by the incredible resilience. They, those who need help or getting help, and a lot of them are just are plowing through. And, and I, I really, I, I, and I even tell them this, I'm like, you know, kudos to you for continuing your education during this difficult time. It's not ideal, but, you know, you got to keep on, you gotta keep on going.

Maureen:
I have to think of the the great things they'll do after they've managed through this, you know, this is going to be there. I walked two miles in the snow foot story

Mark:
Is uphill, and I was thankful yeah. For the rest of their lives, there'll be able to say, not only did I graduate with a very complicated degree accountancy but also I did it during a very difficult time. And I think that is going to you know, that, that sense of, okay, I can get through this is, is going to be really, is going to be really good for them. And, and for the profession going forward.

Maureen:
Well, I know that the job that you are doing in our educators are doing not only are you teaching demanding subjects and learning new technologies and different ways, but you are their support system too. And it's it's appreciated. I was telling you, my, my daughter is in college. I have a son in high school, and I know that their teachers are so important and really make a difference. So thank you.

Mark:
Well, it really has become part of our job is that we, like I said, the CPA firms looking out for each other as kind of what we're doing here is we're trying to look out for the students and make sure no one's falling through the cracks when we can have as much connection with them as we normally would.

Maureen:
Right, right, right. Well, Mark, you've given us so much to think about one last question before we wrap up what are you doing right now to take care of your mental health and get through this time?

Mark:
That's a, that's a tough question to answer, because actually these first few weeks of the semester, when we were recording, this is, is crazy. And I pretty much been working non-stop juggling. I was telling you earlier, I'm teaching one class remotely on zoom in real time, one class completely asynchronously online, and another class that's going to be face-to-face. So trying to juggle all that and having a lot of students has been difficult. I, I, I try to just, you know, focus on who I'm trying to help and, you know, it is very unfortunate to be in a very rewarding profession where I can see students succeed and go on and have wonderful careers and wonderful lives. And that's what I try to focus on. The other thing I try to do is just reading is just reading, always calms me down, reading something non-work-related

Maureen:
Reading anything. Good. Have you read anything good lately?

Mark:
So that I can't remember the author, but there's a new book, a new thick book called Abe about Abraham Lincoln and how he was dealing with the very difficult situation during the civil war and balancing everything. So it's nice to know things aren't that bad, so

Maureen:
Very timely, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. That we'll we'll we'll look up that recommendation. I'm sure. It's like you said, it is a thick one, so I have to put away some time for that. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, Mark, thank you so much for spending some time with us. You've given us lots to think about, and I do encourage everyone to dig up that journal of accountancy article from last year, and then to look forward to your next one. So thank you.

Mark:
Okay. Well, thank you, Maureen, for having me, this has been a pleasure and I think this is something that we need, like I said, we need to talk more about and things like this are a great place to do it.