Transcript: Interview With John Garrett

In our latest podcast episode, Maureen talks with John Garrett, author of What's Your 'And'?, discusses professionals who aren't "stereotypical", connecting with colleagues and his latest book. Listen to the full podcast here.

Maureen:
Welcome to the VSCPA Leading Forward podcast, where we focus on innovation, leadership and the CPA profession. I'm Maureen Dingus, and I invite thought leaders for short, casual conversations on topics and trends important to the success of the CPA profession.

All right, welcome to Leading Forward. Today, we are talking with John Garrett. He is actually an old friend of the society. We were we took a cruise together to go on our hundredth anniversary and who knew we'd meet again in a different circumstance. So John, welcome to Leaning Forward.

John:
I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I remember that cruise from Virginia Beach to Bermuda.

Maureen:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. John was our entertainment. He was a comedian along for the ride and Oh my gosh, you were amazing. I'll never forget how you, you talked to people and got little bits of information and then during your your show, it was like, Whoa, how does he know all this stuff?

John:
He was listening how that happened? Yeah, no, that was, that was great. So I'm excited to be back and be a part of this.

Maureen:
Yeah. Yeah. So you know, can meet accountant to comedian to now book author. So that's quite quite a progression. So kind of on that note, would you mind giving us just a little bit of your leadership journey? How did you get to a consultant, your book, author, where you are right now

John:
On the podcast? Okay. So yeah, so I graduated from the university of Notre Dame. I started with a Price Waterhouse Coopers in St. Louis then moved to Milwaukee. I was on the largest financial services client that PWC had. And then yeah, I started doing stand-up comedy for fun. So I left to go to industry. I was with a pharma company and then moved to Indianapolis with a different pharma company and then with a hospital network. And I was consolidating all the financials for that. And then yeah, in may of 2005 decided it was kind of a perfect storm that happened and had a new manager come in that didn't really get along with. And yeah, so I left to try to do standup full-time which I don't recommend anyone do. It's crazy and hard.

And yeah, eventually moved to New York city wrote two, I mean, nominated award shows have a comedy on Mon, Sirius and Pandora open for Louie Anderson in Atlantic city, hung out with Leno and Seinfeld and all the names. And yeah. And then about six years ago kind of married those two lives together to speak at more corporate events and consult with organizations, both in firms and companies to build a culture that's attracts and retain talent. And that is just a place that people, people genuinely know each other and care about each other. And yeah, it all sort of happened on accident. None of this was planned clearly when I graduated from Notre Dame, it was not, you know, go do this. And so, yeah, so it's less of the comedy now. I certainly bring that to the stage, but it's more of, you know, how do we make a difference? And there's an ROI here too, you know, companies investing in and making a difference.

Maureen:
Right? So it really seems to me that all of that is evident in your book. What's your, and the whole idea of that is, you know, you are more than just a professional. You are more than the work that you do. So how did you come about wanting to write this particular book? What's your and yeah.

John:
Well, the message started. I was speaking at an AICPA conference and there were about 900 people and I was backstage. I was going to be getting miked up. I mean, they're putting the microphone on me and the meeting professional comes in and was like, Hey, do you know Mark so-and-so? And I said, no, I've never heard that name in my life. And she says, well, he knows you he saw all the speakers and right away said, I know John Garrett, that's the guy who did comedy at night. And I was like, who is this rain man? Like, how does he know me? Like, what do I owe him 50 bucks? Like, why is this a thing? And so I finished my presentation, 900 people, you know, in the back of my mind, I'm like, where is Mark? Like, how do I not know you?

And then I looked it up. He was in my first PWC office, 12 years before that. So 12 years later he remembered me and he's in the tax department and I'm one of those accountants that doesn't know how taxes work. So like I was in MNA and internal audit stuff, so I don't do taxes. I never met him. I never worked with him. I never went to that floor. So, but yet 12 years later, I'm on a shortlist of people that he immediately recalls. And so I started thinking, well, am I the only one who had a hobby cause? And he also remembered me for being a, doing comedy. Like that's a hobby. That's not how I make a living. And and then I started talking to people, no, we've, we almost all have a hobby or a passion when you do outside of work yet. No one's talking about it. And so that's what really started the, the message. And then, you know, from speaking so much and just doing the consulting with organizations, it became, people were asking, you know, Hey, do you have a book? So I can share this with my coworkers. Can I share this with my, you know, my friends or my classmates, you know, that we graduated college with or whatever. And I was like, no, I don't. And so that's kind of what made it where, well, I guess I have to write a book now.

Maureen:
Sure. I have to write a book.

John:
I mean, I, I didn't grow up wanting, I mean, people that write books are like really smart and like people with like Tweed coats with elbow patches, I don't know, like they smoke a pipe, I'm sure. Like, just not me. And so so yeah, but that's why when I wrote the book, I wanted it to be a book that I would want to read. And that's why right at the top, it's look, you're busy. You don't want to read a long book and I don't want to write a long book. So it's 200 pages of all meat. There's no fluff in there. It's just, it's very digestible. And, you know you know, it's just, I want you to finish the book.

Maureen:
Yeah. I mean, I will, I will attest to it. I I ordered it last week and I've been flipping through it and really enjoying it. It's, it's very accessible. It, the messages are clear. And I, you know, I was sharing with you earlier that I want to share this with my leadership team, because I think it has so many gems in there that we can discuss and then implement. So I do, it's totally handy. And you know, I even in the, let me see, what is it, the, the forward or the, the forward by Lou Holtz? The one thing that really caught me is that people come to work and they have the question. Do you care about me? And don't leave that question unanswered. And that just those two sentences, I think, sums this up. Do you care about me? If you can, if that person feels that then wow.

John:
Do you care about me as a person? Not as a financial analyst or as a CFO or as whatever my title is, but you care about me as a human. I have so many other dimensions to who I am as a person. And you know, it's, it's important that we acknowledge that people have other dimensions to who they are, and it's more than just work and family there's faith and friends and outside of work interests and passions and other things that, that we have. And even that study that was done at Duke university that found that people had have more of those dimensions are less prone to anxiety and depression, which is so important, but even more important since March 20, 20 hit, you know, and everyone forced to work remotely. And you know, some of these people are, you know, they live alone and now they're alone for seven months or maybe they live in a big city.

So they have three roommates in a two bedroom apartment and they can't do anything cause they're crawling all over each other. And, you know, so care about that. And, and, you know, and even just all kinds of people, people that, you know, maybe their spouse got furloughed or laid off, and then they're having to homeschool two or three kids and a house that's not built to have extra home offices or extra schooling rooms, you know, and, and we're all going through a lot whether it's a pandemic or not in, right. And then just finding out what it is that, that that's going on in people's lives is really crucial, but more importantly, just what lights people up, you know, what do they get excited about? And if it's accounting great. But if it's not accounting also great, you know, you're good at your job.

You like your job, but accounting doesn't have to be the thing that lights you up. So don't lie about it. Just be like, Hey, you know what, I'm good at it. But you know, if I win the Powerball, you know I'm going to be out skiing forever. You know, I'm going to be on an Island somewhere. Like I'm not going to be doing tax returns for fun. You know? I mean, that's the thing is through my own research, I found that 92% of us have a passion that we do outside of work. And do you know what 92% of your coworkers love to do outside of work? And I bet you don't, and it's not your fault. It's kind of theirs for not sharing, but it's also yours. If they don't know yours, then you need to share too. Right.

Maureen:
And I mean, I guess we all do have that part of ourselves that we could share, but I guess it would start with the culture of an organization that wants you to share that. And that kind of celebrates that. So, you know, you, you talk a lot about culture and how that plays into this even being a thing.

John:
Yeah. When I created that model, it's called culture core. So basically like an Apple, your organization is made up of people, but those people are made up of passions and personalities. And so the thing that makes your firm different, the thing that makes your department different, isn't the people, it's the people's personalities and the people's passions. And so that's really the core of your organization's culture. It's not what happens inside the office. It's what happens outside of the office and then getting them to share that and shine a light on that inside the office. And, you know, and because if I take your department and I remove everyone out, and then I bring in new people that have the same degrees and certifications, the work gets done the same, but the, that that's a totally different department because the people have different outside of work, interests, different personalities, all of that.

But the work is the same. And so that's the thing is our only differentiator is the thing that we leave outside. It's the thing that we hide, the things that we don't want to talk about. We don't want to share. We think it's not professional to have other interests because that 8% has bullied the 92 to believe that it's gotta be all work all the time and don't even have an outside of work interest. And if you do, God forbid, if you share it, you know, and it's crazy. And so I'm basically flipping that on in his head and telling you the stereotypical accountant is somebody that has other interests. The stereotypical accountant is somebody that works so they can live. That is the stereotype, and it's not even close. And so like, it's time that we start acting like that and harnessing that, you know, it's, it's really crucial.

Maureen:
One of the things that I, I like about this book also is, you know, you have what you write and then you have a lot of words from CPAs or accountants sprinkled in. So there may be a little bit of their story. And at the end of that, you have their name, comma, what their, what their end is. So it's not, you know, seniors marathoner or photographer bottle, but he makes those little model ships in bottles

John:
Where you like fool them down and slide them through the hole and then open them up. And, yeah, and it's cool because it's, it's attorneys, it's engineers, it's so much bigger than just accounting which is cool too. But but yeah, I mean, because that's, that's really the, your end is the eye of the hurricane, if you will. I mean, especially in accounting, I mean, you're going to work for different firms or different companies through your career. You're going to have different positions. Even if you stay at the firm, you're going to be a manager, you're going to be a senior manager. You're going to be a director or partner or whatever. And those technical skills that you use are totally different as you move up, the technology's changing. I mean, we've heard in the professional, AI's just wrecking everything or who knows what everything's changing.

It's always changing. Well, that's, that's unsettling. Just from a mental wellness perspective. I mean, like where do you plant your feet? Well, you plant them on your end that outside of work, passion or interest, because I mean, I love college football. I love ice cream. I love going to concerts. Well, I, that was me when I was in college. That was me when I was at PWC. That was me when I was a senior associate at PWC. That was me when I worked for Schwab pharma. That was me. When, you know, when I worked for, you know, Clarion health, like, I mean, all of those jobs that I had, I always loved college football. I always loved going to concerts. Like, you know, so that's the thing that if we put that on the back burner and we let it go dormant, and, but what'll happen is it's a slippery slope to going extinct.

And then you forget. I mean, there's so many people I've talked to after speaking at conferences that, you know, I used to love to run. And I don't remember the last time I went running and you don't even need a team. Like you just put on some shoes and go running. I mean, you don't need a basketball hoop or you don't need any other thing. And, you know, and it just, you know, work becomes our sole identity and it's important and don't get me wrong, like be good at your job and get those degrees and get those certifications. But don't hang your hat on that, because that just gets you a seat at the table. I mean, CPAs, you know, I worked hard to graduate from Notre Dame. I worked really hard to pass the exam and I thought, wow, I made it. And I walked in and Oh, everyone else has already also here and on paper, they all look the same. And you know, don't be afraid to let your personality out and, and have a differentiator because, you know, when it comes to staffing clients, when it comes to clients, choosing you as an organization, when it comes to projects, when it comes to getting promoted, what's the difference between you and everybody else? I mean, we're all really good at our job. So, I mean, it's, it's, it's not the technical skills that's going to super differentiate you because somebody else probably has the same. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and

Maureen:
I, I have to admit that one of our members is in your book Chris check them off and I'm like, totally, I had no idea. And I've worked with him for years, so, wow. What do I not know about my members? You know, so it can be a lot of parts of our lives where we just maybe see people or even show up in a, in a one dimensional way. So yeah, kind of,

John:
Exactly. And, and I mean, all of a sudden things start to they're in color and, you know, your, your brain starts to tingle. Cause you're creating those connections. There's  endorphins and oxytocin going on. And, and all of a sudden people are interesting and they're fascinating. And that's how you truly become a trusted advisor. You have to be interesting. You have to, I mean, it's brain science. Like you can't be the best technical, skilled person and, and be a trusted advisor. So if you're gonna call yourself that, then you're going to need to be interesting. You're going to have to shatter that stereotype. And you know, of what people think of you,

Maureen:
I've, you know, you mentioned AI and all the fear around that and the computers taking over. And I, one of our members said, we need, the humans need to be even more human. So it's kind of like opening, opening up your home and humanness that's already there.

John:
Yeah. Cause I mean, you shouldn't be scared of the computer. That's great. I mean, the human with computer a combo is so much stronger than either one by themselves. And you know, the easiest example is like, you know, a tax return. Well, you know, if somebody inherits some money, but then they have to pay some tax or it's land. And then all of a sudden, you know, they don't have the cash to pay the tax on the thing, you know, a computer will just tell you, well, here's what you owe and it's not very sympathetic or empathetic to the client. Or even if you work in industry, you know, talking between departments and what's going on in someone's life and, and delivering that, that news or talking to someone in a way that's, that's human. So yeah, you have to be even more human now and, and that's okay.

You know, it it's, it's more than, okay, actually, it's, it's essential that you, that you are in, in the easiest way to do that is just to acknowledge that you have other interests in your life. Like you're more than just one thing. And you know, and then, you know, now that working remotely, I mean, it's even more crucial to have these things as just a break to get away or a way to relate to people virtually that's more than just passing them in the hallway and how are you doing fine. Okay, fine. You know, it's no, you're not like, you know, talk about it type of thing.

Maureen:
Right. So one of the, you call it modules in the book is called, don't be afraid. What are maybe one or two of the, I think there were all like almost 20 things not to be afraid of. There's a lot. What are some,

John:
None of us are so permission-based yeah. We're so permission-based like, well, they didn't say I could share my hand. Well, they didn't say you couldn't either. So how about you just do it? You know what I mean? If you're not doing anything illegal and you know, it's nothing that's taboo, so it's okay to share, you know, that, that I have other interests. I'm, I'm a person, like, of course I have other things in my life that are important that are also not work, you know? And and so you know, I, I think that the key is from interviewing so many people and doing all the research that I've done is, is one, is that people are, are afraid to label themselves. Well, I'm not a runner because someone else runs a marathon faster than me or someone else. I'm not a painter because no one's ever bought one of my paintings or it's not in a gallery or, or whatever.

And it's, so instead of giving yourself the label, then just say, I enjoy, I enjoy painting. Are they any good? Who cares? I'm not doing them for your approval. I'm doing them because I enjoy it. I enjoy watching horror movies. I enjoy baking. I enjoy gardening. Have I ever grown anything that didn't die? No, but it doesn't matter. I enjoy it. You know, like whatever it is. So that, that, that phrase, I think really takes a lot of the weight off, especially people like CPAs that are very you know, proficient in their job and are good at what they do. They want to be good at everything. So, you know, I'm good at what I do at work, so I can call myself a XYZ title. But I'm not as good at it outside of work at something else. Well, that doesn't matter. I enjoy. It's a great,

Maureen:
I think that's great advice because you know, even just me personally, I w well, I've run, but I always qualify it by saying I do a running motion cross the finish line, but I know that I enjoy running, but I enjoy being with my friends and running. So I'm going to use that because I don't like to say I'm a runner because it's, there is this idea that right now I'm running a nine minute mile and I don't take breaks. And none of that is true. So you just give it away to,

John:
I enjoy running. No, one's going to ask you your time. Nobody. Okay, great. That's okay.

Maureen:
I've decided if they do, they're a jerk.

John:
Yeah, totally. That's it. See, we're not in seventh grade anymore where people are going to make fun of you or shove you in a locker, you know, whatever, you know, it's, it's, it's all that. And I think another one that's really important on the don't be afraid is don't be afraid to make it safe for someone to go second and third and fourth. And you know, if, if you share your, and then people are more inclined to share theirs, but don't judge what someone else has and is that's awesome. Follow up. Oh, you love to run, you enjoy running. That's great. Like, where do you, where do you like to run? Or what's been your favorite run or, you know, like, you know, those kinds of things are great because then people start to tell stories and you can see them light up their eyes get big.

And then the tone of their voice changes and there's color in the, in the office then, and there's emotion there, that that's really cool. And you know, that that's, that's so crucial to see that, you know, do people light up when they're talking about work? Sure. Sometimes, but sometimes not. And, but when they're talking about running, you always light up on that, Maureen. So, you know, it's, it's getting people to, to, to bring some of that energy and passion and emotion to the office and not making it such a gray, ah, you know, just, just lifeless place. You know? I mean,

Maureen:
I love what you said about the stories. It starts with stories because that's when things are interesting, not even just the label, I'm a runner, it's like, Oh, okay. But you know, going into those stories, that's where those extra connections start. Yeah. I used to live there and you know, it just goes, goes and goes.

John:
Yeah, no, there's, there's so many ways that this can benefit. I mean, not only just utilizing your talent cause there's expertise that people have from outside of work that you didn't even know. But also just critical feedback. Isn't so critical. I mean, as a leader, you're going to have to tell people, Hey, you're not doing as good of a job as what I thought, or what have you. But if you have a relationship with them such that you have a genuine, genuine interest in them as a person, and they understand that it's coming from a place of love and a place of a genuine caring about me as a, as a, you know as a staff person. And so then it's, it's you literally just pulling a friend aside and being like, Hey, I know you can do better. And how can I support you to do better? As opposed to a manager that I had early on that the only time he talked to me was to tell me what I did wrong. And you know what, I can't wait to quit. Cause like, I don't want to ever be on one of your projects ever again, because you're not a good person to be around and you don't even care. Like you don't care. And it's that simple.

Maureen:
So the another module is taking action and you have lots of tips on how people are, maybe just, how do I even go about this? What is the first thing I should do? What are some of your favorite actions that you do?

John:
Yeah. Cause that's a huge pet peeve of mine is when you read a book, that's kind of a philosophy theory kind of book. And then you're like, well, great. Well, how do I do this? What is that? And then, so that's why I wanted to throw something at the end, but what works at one, company's not going to work at another company or even within a firm, what works in one office in new, York's not going to work at the office and, you know, st. Louis or pick a city. And so, you know, it really has to be customized to what you're going to do and what works. But I mean the simplest one, I mean, there's, there's, they're also, but they're not easy, I guess. And I mean, one that that I'm a huge fan of is just in the email signature, you know, everyone always puts your name and your title and your office and your phone number and your whatever.

And how about just at the bottom I enjoy running and then it, it's in your email signature. So you're not shouting it from the rooftops. It's not a neon flashing, you know, it's just, I enjoy running. And then if people see it then great. And if they don't see it also great, you know, but I guarantee that there's going to be some interesting questions that, you know, people are going to ask, Oh really? You and I enjoy running too. Like where do you run? And like, you know, and so then you start to have those human to human relationships instead of title to title relationships which just go deeper and

Maureen:
They're stickier. Yeah,

John::
Exactly. It's just go below the surface a little bit, not in a creepy way, but just in a way that's like, you know, all right. That's, that's actually interesting. And that's cool. Like with Chris [inaudible], you know, I mean, he was actually on the team that won the Atlantic 10 conference swimming championship is when he was there and you know, that that's cool, you know, what's his job. I'm not even totally sure right now, but I know he's a swimmer and now he's more of a runner because I guess he's he's aged out of the swimming totally. Or the competitive side of it. But yeah, but it's just cool to talk to people about that because they, they love talking about it too.

Maureen::
Right, right, right. Well, John, this has been just great. Or do you have any, any parting thoughts, anything we didn't cover that you think folks should? Or should they just go by the book, right.

John::
Yeah. Well, there's that, but just make accounting. You, you know, for too long, we've let the profession decide how you're supposed to act and how you're supposed to behave. And you're acting based on what you think, a TV character or, well, this is how a manager should act, or this is how a CFO should act. No, it's you, you're the CFO, you're the partner. You're the manager. You be you and bring that to the work because that's what people want to see. And that's what people want to work for. And that makes you go from a manager to an actual leader where people want to follow you. They want to work for you. They want to be around you. They want to go over and above what the standard work is because they, you care about them and they have a genuine interest back into you.

Maureen::
Right. That's cool. Great. So just, you know, we've talked about this as a stressful time. People have kind of been in lockdown, you know, anxiety, what have you been doing to manage and still have your aunt?

John::
Yeah. It's been tough. I mean, it's been really tough that's for sure. I mean, thank goodness college football is back, so there's that. So that gives me a little sense of normalcy, but yeah. I mean, work-wise, you know, it's been, it's been really hard and, you know, cause obviously all the conferences are canceled. You know, and then even, you know, going remote is different. I mean, it's a different animal altogether. It's basically you're doing a TV show. Because when I get involved, we're upping the level of production. You know, it's not just going to be somebody sitting there as a talking head at a terrible webcam. You like, there's going to, it's going to be a TV show. And so so it's been cool to be a part of some of that. But yeah, for my end, you know, it's that, I mean ice cream is always there. It's, you know, live streaming some, some, you mean musicians are doing that. I mean, it's not the same, but it's at least something, you know, and you know, and then just you know, just trying to stay positive, you know, it's, it's really hard, but you know, it's been cool with the podcast, just talking to so many people and, you know, connecting with them about their and, and, and what have you, and just, you know, it just that's, that's always fun too. So yeah.

Maureen::
Well, thank you again, this has been really great. It's, like I said, it's been good to reconnect after all these years, but like, wait a minute, it's kind of like the the guy at that AI CPA conference, when I, I saw my LinkedIn feed blowing up with this book by this guy and I'm like, wait a minute.

John::
Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's the next time we'll have to get a B on a cruise again. So that was,

Maureen::
Yeah. There you go. No, no, no. I think my cruising days are over.

John::
That's true. Yeah. I guess now that everything. Yeah, maybe not, but anyway, we'll act like it. We'll just get a virtual background.

Maureen::
There you go. That sounds great. We'll do that. All right. Thank you so much, John.

John::
This was great. Thanks Maureen.